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	<title>Comments on: school of prayer: Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Finkenwalde, and the Psalms</title>
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	<description>: Blogging Linear Interstellar Points :</description>
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		<title>By: rey</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2003/11/03/school-of-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-15578</link>
		<dc:creator>rey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 04:34:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You can’t tie Marcionism to genocide since the whole point of rejecting the OT is to reject the god of genocide found there. Marcionism was never about hating Jews but rejecting the genocidal god of the OT as a lower god than the Heavenly Father specifically because of his cruelty and immorality.

The theology you are referring to has no right to be called Marcionism (which is properly a dualistic belief in two gods and a rejection of the genocidal creator in preference to the Loving Alien God).

Rather, the theology you refer to is a sort of secular rejection of the OT via source criticism, like the Documentary Hypothesis. It doesn’t say (as Marcion did) that the OT is the true revelation of a lower and immoral god. Rather it says the OT is a pack of lies created by the Jews to help them take over the world. As such, it actually is antagonistic to the Jews (whereas Marcionism proper is not) and it actually is dangerous because it lacks Marcionism’s moral core, the rejection of genocide.

As such this secular rejection of the OT via source criticism can lead to genocide, and it did! But Marcionism could never lead to genocide since the rejection of genocide is at its very core. In fact, Marcionism is the ONLY religion that consistently rejects genocide. ‘Orthodox’ Christians are forced to defend the genocides of the OT, and thus to basically say “Genocide is good as long as Jews are doing the killing rather than being killed.” But Marcionism ALWAYS rejects genocide as immoral.

–Rey Beowulf Jacobs, proud Marcionite

PS: As to the Psalter being “the great school of prayer.” Is there any greater school of genocide? Psalm 137:9 “Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.” The Psalms are full of violence and genocide. Rejecting Marcionism and going to the Psalms is not a good idea. Essentially, those theologians of the third reich who thought they were abandoning the OT, were in reality its greatest followers. The thought they were doing God’s work by committing genocide. They were following in the path of Joshua and Saul, not Marcion. They claimed rejection of the OT, but they lived as thought he OT god himself had addressed Numbers 31:17-18 to them “Kill everyone; men, boys, women who aren’t virgins; but as for the virgin little girls, keep them for yourselves.” What a bunch of Old Testament pricks the Nazis were! Marcion may have been on their lips, but their hearts were far from him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can&#8217;t tie Marcionism to genocide since the whole point of rejecting the OT is to reject the god of genocide found there. Marcionism was never about hating Jews but rejecting the genocidal god of the OT as a lower god than the Heavenly Father specifically because of his cruelty and immorality.</p>
<p>The theology you are referring to has no right to be called Marcionism (which is properly a dualistic belief in two gods and a rejection of the genocidal creator in preference to the Loving Alien God).</p>
<p>Rather, the theology you refer to is a sort of secular rejection of the OT via source criticism, like the Documentary Hypothesis. It doesn&#8217;t say (as Marcion did) that the OT is the true revelation of a lower and immoral god. Rather it says the OT is a pack of lies created by the Jews to help them take over the world. As such, it actually is antagonistic to the Jews (whereas Marcionism proper is not) and it actually is dangerous because it lacks Marcionism&#8217;s moral core, the rejection of genocide.</p>
<p>As such this secular rejection of the OT via source criticism can lead to genocide, and it did! But Marcionism could never lead to genocide since the rejection of genocide is at its very core. In fact, Marcionism is the <span class="caps">ONLY</span> religion that consistently rejects genocide. &#8216;Orthodox&#8217; Christians are forced to defend the genocides of the OT, and thus to basically say &#8220;Genocide is good as long as Jews are doing the killing rather than being killed.&#8221; But Marcionism <span class="caps">ALWAYS</span> rejects genocide as immoral.</p>
<p>&#8211;Rey Beowulf Jacobs, proud Marcionite</p>
<p>PS: As to the Psalter being &#8220;the great school of prayer.&#8221; Is there any greater school of genocide? Psalm 137:9 &#8220;Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.&#8221; The Psalms are full of violence and genocide. Rejecting Marcionism and going to the Psalms is not a good idea. Essentially, those theologians of the third reich who thought they were abandoning the OT, were in reality its greatest followers. The thought they were doing God&#8217;s work by committing genocide. They were following in the path of Joshua and Saul, not Marcion. They claimed rejection of the OT, but they lived as thought he OT god himself had addressed Numbers 31:17-18 to them &#8220;Kill everyone; men, boys, women who aren&#8217;t virgins; but as for the virgin little girls, keep them for yourselves.&#8221; What a bunch of Old Testament pricks the Nazis were! Marcion may have been on their lips, but their hearts were far from him.</p>
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		<title>By: DanielB</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2003/11/03/school-of-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-14688</link>
		<dc:creator>DanielB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 23:10:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I too turned to Bonhoeffer last year and re-read &quot;The Cost of Discipleship&quot; again. I had fallen prey to the &quot;cheap grace&quot; school of American &quot;christianity.&quot; Over the last fifteen years I had somehow morphed into a Pharisee. 

I was planning on making this comment just before I read the last post and now it seems even more pertinent. I had this amazing Sunday School teacher, Bill Delvaux, who was a high school teacher and cross country coach. An amazing man with insights that God has used to speak to me on many occasions about many subjects. The class he co-taught was on the Psalms. The first week, he spoke of the Law, the Prophets and the Gospels, but then when he came to the Psalms he opened a whole new subject that we rarely deal with in suburban churches. His words, not mine. &quot;When we come to David&#039;s psalms, it&#039;s as though God has ripped opened the chest of a believer, a seeker, a disciple and for the first time we see what&#039;s in his heart, what&#039;s in our hearts.&quot; And yes, the desire for revenge, self-pity and self-loathing still lurk in the dark corners. Notice though in a whole lot of those psalms how there seems to be a pause and then it&#039;s as though God spoke to David in that pause and the tone of the Psalm radically changes. He honestly poured out his heart and what came out convicted him. Don&#039;t plead the fifth amendment! Be honest with Him, yourself and others. Read them all!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I too turned to Bonhoeffer last year and re-read &#8220;The Cost of Discipleship&#8221; again. I had fallen prey to the &#8220;cheap grace&#8221; school of American &#8220;christianity.&#8221; Over the last fifteen years I had somehow morphed into a Pharisee.</p>
<p>I was planning on making this comment just before I read the last post and now it seems even more pertinent. I had this amazing Sunday School teacher, Bill Delvaux, who was a high school teacher and cross country coach. An amazing man with insights that God has used to speak to me on many occasions about many subjects. The class he co-taught was on the Psalms. The first week, he spoke of the Law, the Prophets and the Gospels, but then when he came to the Psalms he opened a whole new subject that we rarely deal with in suburban churches. His words, not mine. &#8220;When we come to David&#8217;s psalms, it&#8217;s as though God has ripped opened the chest of a believer, a seeker, a disciple and for the first time we see what&#8217;s in his heart, what&#8217;s in our hearts.&#8221; And yes, the desire for revenge, self-pity and self-loathing still lurk in the dark corners. Notice though in a whole lot of those psalms how there seems to be a pause and then it&#8217;s as though God spoke to David in that pause and the tone of the Psalm radically changes. He honestly poured out his heart and what came out convicted him. Don&#8217;t plead the fifth amendment! Be honest with Him, yourself and others. Read them all!</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2003/11/03/school-of-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-14320</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 13:36:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Good stuff.  I hadn&#039;t realized that the book on the Psalms had gotten Bonhoeffer in that much trouble, but it stands to reason.  

Given that the Psalms are there to teach us to pray (and I more or less agree with Bonhoeffer here), what is his stance on the more difficult-to-pray Psalms--the imprecatory ones, the ones that say things like, &quot;I&#039;ve been just perfect, God, but this guy over here--don&#039;t hear his prayer!&quot;?  I think I recall the idea of our praying Christ&#039;s words (even of judgment?) was very central, but I&#039;m not sure.  And how can we both pray &quot;Father, forgive them&quot; and &quot;Father, don&#039;t forgive them&quot;?  What are your thoughts?  

Excellent post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good stuff.  I hadn&#8217;t realized that the book on the Psalms had gotten Bonhoeffer in that much trouble, but it stands to reason.</p>
<p>Given that the Psalms are there to teach us to pray (and I more or less agree with Bonhoeffer here), what is his stance on the more difficult-to-pray Psalms&#8212;the imprecatory ones, the ones that say things like, &#8220;I&#8217;ve been just perfect, God, but this guy over here&#8212;don&#8217;t hear his prayer!&#8221;?  I think I recall the idea of our praying Christ&#8217;s words (even of judgment?) was very central, but I&#8217;m not sure.  And how can we both pray &#8220;Father, forgive them&#8221; and &#8220;Father, don&#8217;t forgive them&#8221;?  What are your thoughts?</p>
<p>Excellent post.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Baun</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2003/11/03/school-of-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-14212</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Baun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:50:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/?p=31#comment-14212</guid>
		<description>The Pslams reach to the depths of emotion, mind, and will. In their depth can be found the very heart of God speaking to  us .

The Psalms keep me honest before God. At times I feel abandoned, full of guilt, while at other times joy fills my heart. Tears also  for myself, my family, my friends, my enemies, and especially God&#039;s people - whom I desperately need. 

The Psalms are raw emotionally just like I sometimes deny I am. Like smelling salts they awaken my soul to love God. What it is to be a person in love with Jesus is what the Psalms declare.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Pslams reach to the depths of emotion, mind, and will. In their depth can be found the very heart of God speaking to  us .</p>
<p>The Psalms keep me honest before God. At times I feel abandoned, full of guilt, while at other times joy fills my heart. Tears also  for myself, my family, my friends, my enemies, and especially God&#8217;s people &#8211; whom I desperately need.</p>
<p>The Psalms are raw emotionally just like I sometimes deny I am. Like smelling salts they awaken my soul to love God. What it is to be a person in love with Jesus is what the Psalms declare.</p>
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		<title>By: isaac</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2003/11/03/school-of-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-13614</link>
		<dc:creator>isaac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jul 2007 16:05:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jim, thanks for reading my meditaiton on Bonhoffer&#039;s meditation on the Psalms. I&#039;m glad that you find in him a model of faith for your children. His example is encouraging for me as well. But I read him as more of a tragic figure--something along the lines of Fowl and Jones reading of Bonhoeffer in their short book, &lt;em&gt;Reading in Communion&lt;/em&gt;. They offer a reading of Bonhoeffer that seems really important. They notice how the church failed Bonhoeffer in it&#039;s absence. There was no community to discern the Word, so Bonhoeffer was left with solitary readings. So, the life of Bonhoeffer is also a call for us to be that community that forms friendships of discernment and accountablity--and, ultimately, sustain our hope as we patiently await the peaceable kingdom of God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, thanks for reading my meditaiton on Bonhoffer&#8217;s meditation on the Psalms. I&#8217;m glad that you find in him a model of faith for your children. His example is encouraging for me as well. But I read him as more of a tragic figure&#8212;something along the lines of Fowl and Jones reading of Bonhoeffer in their short book, <em>Reading in Communion</em>. They offer a reading of Bonhoeffer that seems really important. They notice how the church failed Bonhoeffer in it&#8217;s absence. There was no community to discern the Word, so Bonhoeffer was left with solitary readings. So, the life of Bonhoeffer is also a call for us to be that community that forms friendships of discernment and accountablity&#8212;and, ultimately, sustain our hope as we patiently await the peaceable kingdom of God.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Steele</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2003/11/03/school-of-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-13592</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Steele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:48:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think that in a world where most men are so flawed that heros can not be found, Bonhoeffer is one man I can hold up to my children as a man they should look up to. Thanks for the insights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that in a world where most men are so flawed that heros can not be found, Bonhoeffer is one man I can hold up to my children as a man they should look up to. Thanks for the insights.</p>
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		<title>By: John Laughlin</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2003/11/03/school-of-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-3673</link>
		<dc:creator>John Laughlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 May 2006 17:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/?p=31#comment-3673</guid>
		<description>Very well done, thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very well done, thank you.</p>
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