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	<title>Comments on: gospel of Luke: Jesus is salvation</title>
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		<title>By: Eric Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/09/23/gospel-of-luke-jesus-is-salvation/comment-page-1/#comment-1419</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 15:23:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/?p=142#comment-1419</guid>
		<description>Chris,

This:

&lt;i&gt;Their hearts are still soft and malleable. Below the wounds of their oppression they are often open to others…and open to God.&lt;/i&gt;

...sounds very close to what I think makes up Jesus&#039; assertion that the poor are indeed blessed.

Thanks for this.

Peace,

Eric</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris,</p>
<p>This:</p>
<p><i>Their hearts are still soft and malleable. Below the wounds of their oppression they are often open to others&#8230;and open to God.</i></p>
<p>...sounds very close to what I think makes up Jesus&#8217; assertion that the poor are indeed blessed.</p>
<p>Thanks for this.</p>
<p>Peace,</p>
<p>Eric</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/09/23/gospel-of-luke-jesus-is-salvation/comment-page-1/#comment-1416</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2005 18:06:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/?p=142#comment-1416</guid>
		<description>Eric, your idea of people being spiritually poor from societal oppression has got me thinking.  I&#039;ve done some door to door canvassing with an &quot;Industrial Area Foundations&quot;:http://www.vcn.bc.ca/citizens-handbook/iaf.pdf group here in Tucson.  We&#039;ve done many walks through poor and socially oppressed neighborhoods.  We also walk through nice neighborhoods.  One difference is that the poorer areas usually have more fenced yards, more locked gates, and more guard dogs.  Often when these people&#039;s doors are accessible they won&#039;t answer when we knock.

But I think it is more complex than this because although it may initially be more difficult for these oppressed peoples to be open and trust, once they do they are often empathetic.  Their hearts are still soft and malleable.  Below the wounds of their oppression they are often open to others...and open to God.

Then to take this a step further, I think that the wounds of oppression go both ways, afflicting the rich and the poor.  Wendall Berry quotes &lt;em&gt;The Autobiography of Malcolm X&lt;/em&gt;, &quot;&lt;strong&gt;But I want to tell you something.  This pattern, this &#039;system&#039; that the white man created, of teaching Negroes to hide the truth from him behind a facade of grinning, &#039;yessir-bossing,&#039; foot-shuffling and head-scratching-that system has done the American white man more harm than an invading army would do to him&lt;/strong&gt;.&quot; I think this means that we can listen to both the voice of the rich and the voice of the poor because we all have wounds that make us more sensitive to God and to each other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, your idea of people being spiritually poor from societal oppression has got me thinking.  I&#8217;ve done some door to door canvassing with an <a href="http://www.vcn.bc.ca/citizens-handbook/iaf.pdf" title="">Industrial Area Foundations</a> group here in Tucson.  We&#8217;ve done many walks through poor and socially oppressed neighborhoods.  We also walk through nice neighborhoods.  One difference is that the poorer areas usually have more fenced yards, more locked gates, and more guard dogs.  Often when these people&#8217;s doors are accessible they won&#8217;t answer when we knock.</p>
<p>But I think it is more complex than this because although it may initially be more difficult for these oppressed peoples to be open and trust, once they do they are often empathetic.  Their hearts are still soft and malleable.  Below the wounds of their oppression they are often open to others&#8230;and open to God.</p>
<p>Then to take this a step further, I think that the wounds of oppression go both ways, afflicting the rich and the poor.  Wendall Berry quotes <em>The Autobiography of Malcolm X</em>, &#8220;<strong>But I want to tell you something.  This pattern, this &#8216;system&#8217; that the white man created, of teaching Negroes to hide the truth from him behind a facade of grinning, &#8216;yessir-bossing,&#8217; foot-shuffling and head-scratching-that system has done the American white man more harm than an invading army would do to him</strong>.&#8221; I think this means that we can listen to both the voice of the rich and the voice of the poor because we all have wounds that make us more sensitive to God and to each other.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/09/23/gospel-of-luke-jesus-is-salvation/comment-page-1/#comment-1413</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/?p=142#comment-1413</guid>
		<description>Isaac, the only thing that I can think of is that perhaps there isn&#039;t exactly a duality between &quot;spirit&quot; and &quot;body&quot;.  Perhaps those who don&#039;t have much, because they are therefore rejected by society, are not only monetarily poor, but also spiritually poor from societal oppression.  I don&#039;t know.  Then again, I seem to know some very happy poor people who would never want to have a car and what society deems &quot;normal.&quot;

I guess it really depends on what &quot;poor&quot; actually means.  Most of the financially poor that I know actually happen to be truly poor in other ways, though: physical or mental health, screwed over by various institutions, etc.

Thoughts?  From the sound of it, it seems like we hang out with similar peeps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isaac, the only thing that I can think of is that perhaps there isn&#8217;t exactly a duality between &#8220;spirit&#8221; and &#8220;body&#8221;.  Perhaps those who don&#8217;t have much, because they are therefore rejected by society, are not only monetarily poor, but also spiritually poor from societal oppression.  I don&#8217;t know.  Then again, I seem to know some very happy poor people who would never want to have a car and what society deems &#8220;normal.&#8221;</p>
<p>I guess it really depends on what &#8220;poor&#8221; actually means.  Most of the financially poor that I know actually happen to be truly poor in other ways, though: physical or mental health, screwed over by various institutions, etc.</p>
<p>Thoughts?  From the sound of it, it seems like we hang out with similar peeps.</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/09/23/gospel-of-luke-jesus-is-salvation/comment-page-1/#comment-1410</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:29:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/?p=142#comment-1410</guid>
		<description>exactly jared! i&#039;ve been realizing that its not so much my promise and hope of eternity...but my gift of salvation is for TODAY. i don&#039;t have to wait until heaven to experience life with Christ. too many times evangelicals present salvation as a &quot;one-time&quot; offer to life after death. how could i go through what i go through everyday without Christ?
about sin. thus, everything that a non-christian experiences here on earth is &quot;not tasting the everlasting&quot; , meaning everything are momentary pleasures? temporal? like a shadow? 
there is no lasting satisfaction in anything they experience. 
sorry, a little random! thanks for sharing your thoughts guys. good to know there are others out there
bless y&#039;all
george</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>exactly jared! i&#8217;ve been realizing that its not so much my promise and hope of eternity&#8230;but my gift of salvation is for <span class="caps">TODAY</span>. i don&#8217;t have to wait until heaven to experience life with Christ. too many times evangelicals present salvation as a &#8220;one-time&#8221; offer to life after death. how could i go through what i go through everyday without Christ?<br />
about sin. thus, everything that a non-christian experiences here on earth is &#8220;not tasting the everlasting&#8221; , meaning everything are momentary pleasures? temporal? like a shadow?<br />
there is no lasting satisfaction in anything they experience.<br />
sorry, a little random! thanks for sharing your thoughts guys. good to know there are others out there<br />
bless y&#8217;all<br />
george</p>
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		<title>By: jared</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/09/23/gospel-of-luke-jesus-is-salvation/comment-page-1/#comment-1409</link>
		<dc:creator>jared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2005 16:23:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/?p=142#comment-1409</guid>
		<description>Jason I couldn’t agree with you more. Salvation has been taking on an entirely new concept for me. The idea of using the sinners prayer to confess sins and thus be saved from them and promised heaven, no longer seems to fit into what I read in Jesus’ own interactions with people. Yet Jesus seemed very confidant that he carried a tool that was essential to his concept of salvation. Salvation not just as some eternal life in heaven, but salvation as a taste of the everlasting in our current situation. Thus, my concept of sin has begun to change as well. Maybe sin is a life that does not taste the everlasting. I don’t know exactly what I mean by that. 
Isaac I wonder, how do you think Jesus would describe salvation, if he is salvation? How does Jesus’ life offer us a unique alternative? If it sounds like those are loaded questions, they are not. I just would like to hear you talk a little more about it.
Peace, jared</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason I couldn&#8217;t agree with you more. Salvation has been taking on an entirely new concept for me. The idea of using the sinners prayer to confess sins and thus be saved from them and promised heaven, no longer seems to fit into what I read in Jesus&#8217; own interactions with people. Yet Jesus seemed very confidant that he carried a tool that was essential to his concept of salvation. Salvation not just as some eternal life in heaven, but salvation as a taste of the everlasting in our current situation. Thus, my concept of sin has begun to change as well. Maybe sin is a life that does not taste the everlasting. I don&#8217;t know exactly what I mean by that.<br />
Isaac I wonder, how do you think Jesus would describe salvation, if he is salvation? How does Jesus&#8217; life offer us a unique alternative? If it sounds like those are loaded questions, they are not. I just would like to hear you talk a little more about it.<br />
Peace, jared</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/09/23/gospel-of-luke-jesus-is-salvation/comment-page-1/#comment-1407</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:44:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/?p=142#comment-1407</guid>
		<description>Interesting set of observations.  The thing that struck me most was your point that, in Luke, Jesus &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; salvation.  Lately I&#039;ve been thinking about how else we can think of what Jesus does in his life, death, and resurrection besides forgiveness of sins.  The dominant mode of salvation I&#039;ve heard growing up is that it is through Jesus bearing our sins and thus getting us forgiveness.  Your account from Luke emphasizes that some sort of salvation happens just by Jesus coming &lt;em&gt;here&lt;/em&gt;, to earth.  It seems similar to the Eastern Orthodox view of salvation, which, as I understand it, emphasizes that at the crux of salvation is not the cross and resurrection, but the incarnation.  By bridging the chasm between divine and earthly, Jesus accomplishes salvation.

All that makes sense, but what I don&#039;t yet understand is what it looks like.  Anything other than a sinners-prayer for forgiveness type salvation either seems to emphasize works over grace (i.e. salvation is by living how Jesus lived) or tend towards universalism (i.e. Jesus bridged the divine-earth gap so we&#039;re all saved).  I have a feeling I&#039;m seeing it wrong, but right now I&#039;m having trouble picturing it otherwise...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting set of observations.  The thing that struck me most was your point that, in Luke, Jesus <em>is</em> salvation.  Lately I&#8217;ve been thinking about how else we can think of what Jesus does in his life, death, and resurrection besides forgiveness of sins.  The dominant mode of salvation I&#8217;ve heard growing up is that it is through Jesus bearing our sins and thus getting us forgiveness.  Your account from Luke emphasizes that some sort of salvation happens just by Jesus coming <em>here</em>, to earth.  It seems similar to the Eastern Orthodox view of salvation, which, as I understand it, emphasizes that at the crux of salvation is not the cross and resurrection, but the incarnation.  By bridging the chasm between divine and earthly, Jesus accomplishes salvation.</p>
<p>All that makes sense, but what I don&#8217;t yet understand is what it looks like.  Anything other than a sinners-prayer for forgiveness type salvation either seems to emphasize works over grace (i.e. salvation is by living how Jesus lived) or tend towards universalism (i.e. Jesus bridged the divine-earth gap so we&#8217;re all saved).  I have a feeling I&#8217;m seeing it wrong, but right now I&#8217;m having trouble picturing it otherwise&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: isaac</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/09/23/gospel-of-luke-jesus-is-salvation/comment-page-1/#comment-1406</link>
		<dc:creator>isaac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:32:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/?p=142#comment-1406</guid>
		<description>Camassia, I hadn&#039;t thought about the way listening to the  unique voice of Luke, and the way listening to Luke teaches us to listen to the poor and oppressed, calls into question confident systematic formulations of God. I am totally on board. When I talk to those who are by all standards socially and economically poor, their God is quite simple. The poor and oppressed african-american friends I have here in Durham don&#039;t have a very complicated understanding of this God who offers salvation from all sorts of problems. For them, they have a hard time seeing how all my theological studies helps make sense of their world. And I have to admit alot of times I struggle to find something to say to them. Most of the time their observations about the God who works in their world unsettles my theological confidence, my ability to speak in their linguistic world.

All this thinking about how we need others to unsettle our doctrines of God reminds me of something I recently read about Gregory of Nyssa. For Nyssa, abstract formulations of God&#039;s being don&#039;t do much. He writes, &quot;&lt;em&gt;The divine nature in and of itself is unapproachable and inaccessible to human conjecture. He who by nature is above every nature, who is both beyond the senses and beyond the mind, is seen and grasped by some other method.&lt;/em&gt;&quot; And this &lt;em&gt;other method&lt;/em&gt; is &lt;strong&gt;discipleship&lt;/strong&gt; (See Rowan Williams wonderful account of Nyssa in &quot;The Wound of Knowledge&quot;:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1561010472/103-3574617-7719046?v=glance , 61). In Alex Sider&#039;s &quot;essay&quot;:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0567025519/qid=1127763582/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-3574617-7719046?v=glance&amp;s=books&amp;n=507846 on negative theology and social justice is helpful here. He shows how for Gregory of Nyssa (and other negative theologians) &quot;&lt;em&gt;there is no more determinative knowledge of God than...imitat[ing] the incarnate Christ in his acts of love, poverty, and compassion.... Negative theology is useful because it points out the resourcelessness of any Christian spirituality, ethics, or dogmatics abstracted from a tenacious following after Christ.&lt;/em&gt;&quot; All this says to me that our desire to know God should make us turn to those who tenaciously follow after Christ, in the way of Jesus. &lt;strong&gt;Discipleship is christology&lt;/strong&gt; , as John Yoder puts it. Our way into the reality of God is faithful living, and listening to those who are blessed to see the kingdom of God--i.e., those who Luke identifies as the poor and oppressed. Their &quot;simple&quot; accounts of God are more profound than the most powerful theological elite. They know what the poverty of Jesus feels like; they know what the crucifying powers of the world look like. And it&#039;s against that stark backdrop that we can see most clearly the Light of heaven, the God who is with us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Camassia, I hadn&#8217;t thought about the way listening to the  unique voice of Luke, and the way listening to Luke teaches us to listen to the poor and oppressed, calls into question confident systematic formulations of God. I am totally on board. When I talk to those who are by all standards socially and economically poor, their God is quite simple. The poor and oppressed african-american friends I have here in Durham don&#8217;t have a very complicated understanding of this God who offers salvation from all sorts of problems. For them, they have a hard time seeing how all my theological studies helps make sense of their world. And I have to admit alot of times I struggle to find something to say to them. Most of the time their observations about the God who works in their world unsettles my theological confidence, my ability to speak in their linguistic world.</p>
<p>All this thinking about how we need others to unsettle our doctrines of God reminds me of something I recently read about Gregory of Nyssa. For Nyssa, abstract formulations of God&#8217;s being don&#8217;t do much. He writes, &#8220;<em>The divine nature in and of itself is unapproachable and inaccessible to human conjecture. He who by nature is above every nature, who is both beyond the senses and beyond the mind, is seen and grasped by some other method.</em>&#8221; And this <em>other method</em> is <strong>discipleship</strong> (See Rowan Williams wonderful account of Nyssa in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1561010472/103-3574617-7719046?v=glance" title="">The Wound of Knowledge</a> , 61). In Alex Sider&#8217;s <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0567025519/qid=1127763582/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-3574617-7719046?v=glance&#38;s=books&#38;n=507846" title="">essay</a> on negative theology and social justice is helpful here. He shows how for Gregory of Nyssa (and other negative theologians) &#8220;<em>there is no more determinative knowledge of God than&#8230;imitat[ing] the incarnate Christ in his acts of love, poverty, and compassion&#8230;. Negative theology is useful because it points out the resourcelessness of any Christian spirituality, ethics, or dogmatics abstracted from a tenacious following after Christ.</em>&#8221; All this says to me that our desire to know God should make us turn to those who tenaciously follow after Christ, in the way of Jesus. <strong>Discipleship is christology</strong> , as John Yoder puts it. Our way into the reality of God is faithful living, and listening to those who are blessed to see the kingdom of God&#8212;i.e., those who Luke identifies as the poor and oppressed. Their &#8220;simple&#8221; accounts of God are more profound than the most powerful theological elite. They know what the poverty of Jesus feels like; they know what the crucifying powers of the world look like. And it&#8217;s against that stark backdrop that we can see most clearly the Light of heaven, the God who is with us.</p>
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		<title>By: isaac</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/09/23/gospel-of-luke-jesus-is-salvation/comment-page-1/#comment-1405</link>
		<dc:creator>isaac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/?p=142#comment-1405</guid>
		<description>Eric, thanks for the gracious comment. I am glad I might have shed some light on Luke&#039;s lack of &quot;in spirit.&quot; But I also have to admit that this is where the whole Matthew-Luke connection gets fuzzy for me. I get how important it is to see Luke on its own terms and not let Matthew sublate Luke&#039;s voice in some sort of totalitarian, reconciled (Hegelian) unity. Both voices are important in all their difference. But what do we do when we move to the &quot;synthetic task&quot; (that&#039;s what my professor Richard Hays calls it) where we struggle to hear the one voice of the Word of God? That&#039;s where I have to admit my lack of understanding. I don&#039;t know how to reconcile the different voices without silencing one in the name of the other. Derrida has taught me that there is some sort of violence involved in discerning sameness and otherness, and seeing what happens when voices encounter each other. And that gives me pause as I try to say something about a synthesis, about the way the One who is the Word speaks through these voices. All that to say, I hope that hearing Luke&#039;s voice clearly turns us to listen to Matthew&#039;s voice and contemplate the One God who speaks in difference. So, Eric (and others), need to help me hear this voice. I can&#039;t figure it out on my own. Any suggestions?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, thanks for the gracious comment. I am glad I might have shed some light on Luke&#8217;s lack of &#8220;in spirit.&#8221; But I also have to admit that this is where the whole Matthew-Luke connection gets fuzzy for me. I get how important it is to see Luke on its own terms and not let Matthew sublate Luke&#8217;s voice in some sort of totalitarian, reconciled (Hegelian) unity. Both voices are important in all their difference. But what do we do when we move to the &#8220;synthetic task&#8221; (that&#8217;s what my professor Richard Hays calls it) where we struggle to hear the one voice of the Word of God? That&#8217;s where I have to admit my lack of understanding. I don&#8217;t know how to reconcile the different voices without silencing one in the name of the other. Derrida has taught me that there is some sort of violence involved in discerning sameness and otherness, and seeing what happens when voices encounter each other. And that gives me pause as I try to say something about a synthesis, about the way the One who is the Word speaks through these voices. All that to say, I hope that hearing Luke&#8217;s voice clearly turns us to listen to Matthew&#8217;s voice and contemplate the One God who speaks in difference. So, Eric (and others), need to help me hear this voice. I can&#8217;t figure it out on my own. Any suggestions?</p>
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		<title>By: Camassia</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/09/23/gospel-of-luke-jesus-is-salvation/comment-page-1/#comment-1404</link>
		<dc:creator>Camassia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/?p=142#comment-1404</guid>
		<description>It was interesting reading your post after hearing the sermon in my own church, which was on Matthew&#039;s parables but covered basically the same topic. Along the way he criticized some churches for focusing on &quot;simplistic doctrine&quot; rather than social justice. After I read your last paragraph, though, I thought, &quot;The thing that drives most liberals crazy about the poor is that most of them LIKE simplistic doctrine.&quot; Maybe listening to the poor is a challenge not only for wealthy Christians&#039; wallets but for their hifalutin understandings of God...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was interesting reading your post after hearing the sermon in my own church, which was on Matthew&#8217;s parables but covered basically the same topic. Along the way he criticized some churches for focusing on &#8220;simplistic doctrine&#8221; rather than social justice. After I read your last paragraph, though, I thought, &#8220;The thing that drives most liberals crazy about the poor is that most of them <span class="caps">LIKE</span> simplistic doctrine.&#8221; Maybe listening to the poor is a challenge not only for wealthy Christians&#8217; wallets but for their hifalutin understandings of God&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/09/23/gospel-of-luke-jesus-is-salvation/comment-page-1/#comment-1403</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 02:08:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/?p=142#comment-1403</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this post!  This cleared some things up for me concerning the whole Matthew~Luke treatment of &quot;in spirit,&quot; like you mentioned.  Again, thanks.

peace,

Eric</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this post!  This cleared some things up for me concerning the whole Matthew~Luke treatment of &#8220;in spirit,&#8221; like you mentioned.  Again, thanks.</p>
<p>peace,</p>
<p>Eric</p>
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