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	<title>Comments on: Psalm 88: going to hell</title>
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	<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/10/03/psalm-88-staying-in-hell/</link>
	<description>: Blogging Linear Interstellar Points :</description>
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		<title>By: Naked Prayer: Praying the Psalms (part 4 of 5) : CapChurch</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/10/03/psalm-88-staying-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-15129</link>
		<dc:creator>Naked Prayer: Praying the Psalms (part 4 of 5) : CapChurch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 05:44:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/10/03/psalm-88-staying-in-hell/#comment-15129</guid>
		<description>[...] “Psalm 88 is that member of the family nobody knows what to do with. He’s at all the family reunions, and his name comes up in all the jovial stories, but nobody wants to get caught alone with him in the living room. He’s awkward… irrational… strange. So he sits there and everyone goes outside and explains why he’s so strange and how he fits into the whole family dynamic. But nobody takes the time to really listen to the strangeness and let him explain himself, and maybe change how everyone else views the family.” (www.rustyparts.com) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8220;Psalm 88 is that member of the family nobody knows what to do with. He&#8217;s at all the family reunions, and his name comes up in all the jovial stories, but nobody wants to get caught alone with him in the living room. He&#8217;s awkward&#8230; irrational&#8230; strange. So he sits there and everyone goes outside and explains why he&#8217;s so strange and how he fits into the whole family dynamic. But nobody takes the time to really listen to the strangeness and let him explain himself, and maybe change how everyone else views the family.&#8221; (www.rustyparts.com) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: SUNDAY MEDITATION: Hallo Darkness, My Old Friend: Living with the Unresolved Questions of Grief &#171;</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/10/03/psalm-88-staying-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-15119</link>
		<dc:creator>SUNDAY MEDITATION: Hallo Darkness, My Old Friend: Living with the Unresolved Questions of Grief &#171;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 20:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/10/03/psalm-88-staying-in-hell/ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/10/03/psalm-88-staying-in-hell/" rel="nofollow">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/10/03/psalm-88-staying-in-hell/</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: isaac</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/10/03/psalm-88-staying-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-11555</link>
		<dc:creator>isaac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:35:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Eam, thanks for checking out the website, and reading this post. As you continue reading Psalm 88, please feel free to comment again. Let me know if you think I&#039;m right or wrong to push in the direction that I did.

thanks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eam, thanks for checking out the website, and reading this post. As you continue reading Psalm 88, please feel free to comment again. Let me know if you think I&#8217;m right or wrong to push in the direction that I did.</p>
<p>thanks</p>
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		<title>By: eam selaw</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/10/03/psalm-88-staying-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-11413</link>
		<dc:creator>eam selaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 01:55:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/10/03/psalm-88-staying-in-hell/#comment-11413</guid>
		<description>I do not have any real comment on this subject.  I am just starting to study this text and came across your site.  It is interesting, thought provoking and helpful. Thank you
Eam</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not have any real comment on this subject.  I am just starting to study this text and came across your site.  It is interesting, thought provoking and helpful. Thank you<br />
Eam</p>
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		<title>By: MIND and SOUL - Dr Rob Waller</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/10/03/psalm-88-staying-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-1692</link>
		<dc:creator>MIND and SOUL - Dr Rob Waller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:38:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Unhappy Endings...&lt;/strong&gt;

One of the main things that keeps me going as a Christian is the idea that there is a happy ending. Call it heaven or community or satisfaction or success or prosperity or whatever you want, but the message is...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Unhappy Endings&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>One of the main things that keeps me going as a Christian is the idea that there is a happy ending. Call it heaven or community or satisfaction or success or prosperity or whatever you want, but the message is&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: isaac</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/10/03/psalm-88-staying-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-1531</link>
		<dc:creator>isaac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:46:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Fred K., I think you are right about how Jesus answers the desperate cries of Ps. 88 with his own death and resurrection. That definite seems like the right thing to say—we are Christians after all! But I guess I still wonder about if I really know how to listen to that voice in Psalm 88. I mean, it is so easy for me to say, “Yeah, that sounds depressing. But thank God we don’t have to wallow in that pain because Jesus rose up from the grave!” So what happens is, as I said above, “Psalm 88 articulates a necessary phase on our way to the resurrection where we find the reconcilation of all textual voices.” But I have a hard time seeing how that takes Psalm 88 seriously. We don’t have to linger there. Feel the pain. We just escape to Jesus’ resurrection. And I think there has to be better ways to deal with the pain of Psalm 88, or, I should say, better ways to listen to that voice, to really listen, not just pay lip service. I want to say that there is something we are missing about the Christian life when we can’t listen to that abandonment and let it shake up our views about the world. So, that’s why I said that maybe texts like Psalm 88 should make us pick up our eyes and go out into the world and find people who’s very life speaks of this pain. And, because they intimately know the voice of Psalm 88, they might be able to shed light on how the gospel makes sense in that voice, not escaping to another. Does that make sense?

So, since that post, I stumbled across a more contemporary voice that might offer more light on Psalm 88, another voice that speaks of the same despair and calls us to take it seriously, not dismiss it as a phase in our theological project(“Don’t worry, Jesus loves you and died for your sins and even though it feels bad now, Jesus will make it all better.” Yuck!!) The voice is that of Ellison. When I listen to the pain he experienced in racist America, I can’t help but hear Psalm 88 with a different accent. Here’s the quote from THE INVISIBLE MAN: &lt;strong&gt;“I am invisible, understand, simply because people refuse to see me…. You’re constantly being bumped against by those of poor vision. Or again, you often doubt if you really exist. You wonder whether you aren’t simply a phantom in other people’s minds. Say, a figure in a nightmare which the sleeper tries with all his strength to destroy.”&lt;/strong&gt; Do I see this man? Do I really hear that voice in Psalm 88? Maybe not. But how would I know if I saw this invisible man or really heard that voice in Psalm 88? I know I suffer from poor vision. How am I set free from all the ways I blind myself? Who can illumine the text? Now, as I read those voices like Psalm 88 that grind against the way I think the canonical story is suppossed to flow, I hear Ellision and think of all the others who I refuse to see. I wonder if there are ways, practices we can cultivate, that make us better at lingering with these voices instead of &lt;em&gt;bumping&lt;/em&gt; into them on my way somewhere else, somewhere more comfortable, more familiar, not so strange.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred K., I think you are right about how Jesus answers the desperate cries of Ps. 88 with his own death and resurrection. That definite seems like the right thing to say&#8212;we are Christians after all! But I guess I still wonder about if I really know how to listen to that voice in Psalm 88. I mean, it is so easy for me to say, &#8220;Yeah, that sounds depressing. But thank God we don&#8217;t have to wallow in that pain because Jesus rose up from the grave!&#8221; So what happens is, as I said above, &#8220;Psalm 88 articulates a necessary phase on our way to the resurrection where we find the reconcilation of all textual voices.&#8221; But I have a hard time seeing how that takes Psalm 88 seriously. We don&#8217;t have to linger there. Feel the pain. We just escape to Jesus&#8217; resurrection. And I think there has to be better ways to deal with the pain of Psalm 88, or, I should say, better ways to listen to that voice, to really listen, not just pay lip service. I want to say that there is something we are missing about the Christian life when we can&#8217;t listen to that abandonment and let it shake up our views about the world. So, that&#8217;s why I said that maybe texts like Psalm 88 should make us pick up our eyes and go out into the world and find people who&#8217;s very life speaks of this pain. And, because they intimately know the voice of Psalm 88, they might be able to shed light on how the gospel makes sense in that voice, not escaping to another. Does that make sense?</p>
<p>So, since that post, I stumbled across a more contemporary voice that might offer more light on Psalm 88, another voice that speaks of the same despair and calls us to take it seriously, not dismiss it as a phase in our theological project(&#8220;Don&#8217;t worry, Jesus loves you and died for your sins and even though it feels bad now, Jesus will make it all better.&#8221; Yuck!!) The voice is that of Ellison. When I listen to the pain he experienced in racist America, I can&#8217;t help but hear Psalm 88 with a different accent. Here&#8217;s the quote from <span class="caps">THE INVISIBLE MAN</span>: <strong>&#8220;I am invisible, understand, simply because people refuse to see me&#8230;. You&#8217;re constantly being bumped against by those of poor vision. Or again, you often doubt if you really exist. You wonder whether you aren&#8217;t simply a phantom in other people&#8217;s minds. Say, a figure in a nightmare which the sleeper tries with all his strength to destroy.&#8221;</strong> Do I see this man? Do I really hear that voice in Psalm 88? Maybe not. But how would I know if I saw this invisible man or really heard that voice in Psalm 88? I know I suffer from poor vision. How am I set free from all the ways I blind myself? Who can illumine the text? Now, as I read those voices like Psalm 88 that grind against the way I think the canonical story is suppossed to flow, I hear Ellision and think of all the others who I refuse to see. I wonder if there are ways, practices we can cultivate, that make us better at lingering with these voices instead of <em>bumping</em> into them on my way somewhere else, somewhere more comfortable, more familiar, not so strange.</p>
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		<title>By: isaac</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/10/03/psalm-88-staying-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-1528</link>
		<dc:creator>isaac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:43:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/10/03/psalm-88-staying-in-hell/#comment-1528</guid>
		<description>Jason, I like the way you talk about discovering the unity of Scripture through arguments. We are unfied &quot;by the ideas and practices we find worth arguing about.&quot; I think you might be onto something there. In that way of thinking about the unity of the texts within the canon it makes the boundaries between the conversation within the Bible and the conversation about the bible a little blurry, in a good way I think. I mean, just under the surface of claims and questions about the unity of the biblical message for our lives resides concern about authority. &lt;em&gt;What does this text mean for my life? And who has the authority to name that unity, to make those connections, to make the message of the Bible shape my life, my convictions?&lt;/em&gt; So, your suggestion helps, I think, because it makes the conversation itself authoritative--the conversation within the Bible invites &lt;em&gt;us&lt;/em&gt; to join in. As Stanley Cavell says, &quot;the conversation decides.&quot; There is no authority for the church outside of this conversation, this appeal to the voices of the text spoken or read at the table of churchly discernment. There is no simple reduction of &quot;authority&quot; to the text (&lt;em&gt;sola scriptura&lt;/em&gt;), nor is authority reduced to the whim of the interpretive community. There is a relationship between the two that is irreducible to either. And the authoritative voice emeges through the irreducible dialectic of bible and interpretive community. So, the voice is always a hoped production, or work, this relationship. How does that sound? Too Hegelian? Maybe. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason, I like the way you talk about discovering the unity of Scripture through arguments. We are unfied &#8220;by the ideas and practices we find worth arguing about.&#8221; I think you might be onto something there. In that way of thinking about the unity of the texts within the canon it makes the boundaries between the conversation within the Bible and the conversation about the bible a little blurry, in a good way I think. I mean, just under the surface of claims and questions about the unity of the biblical message for our lives resides concern about authority. <em>What does this text mean for my life? And who has the authority to name that unity, to make those connections, to make the message of the Bible shape my life, my convictions?</em> So, your suggestion helps, I think, because it makes the conversation itself authoritative&#8212;the conversation within the Bible invites <em>us</em> to join in. As Stanley Cavell says, &#8220;the conversation decides.&#8221; There is no authority for the church outside of this conversation, this appeal to the voices of the text spoken or read at the table of churchly discernment. There is no simple reduction of &#8220;authority&#8221; to the text (<em>sola scriptura</em>), nor is authority reduced to the whim of the interpretive community. There is a relationship between the two that is irreducible to either. And the authoritative voice emeges through the irreducible dialectic of bible and interpretive community. So, the voice is always a hoped production, or work, this relationship. How does that sound? Too Hegelian? Maybe.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred K.</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/10/03/psalm-88-staying-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-1520</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Oct 2005 22:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Off the cuff, drawing on Hans Urs von Ba lthasar, I&#039;d say that this Psalm is answered in the NT by the abandonment of sinners that Christ took upon himself on the cross. 

I also wonder if it is related to the history of the Sons of Korah. They tried to abolish the temple priesthood and make the priesthood of all believers the only priesthood. For this rebellion, they were swallowed by the earth.

What do you think?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Off the cuff, drawing on Hans Urs von Ba lthasar, I&#8217;d say that this Psalm is answered in the NT by the abandonment of sinners that Christ took upon himself on the cross.</p>
<p>I also wonder if it is related to the history of the Sons of Korah. They tried to abolish the temple priesthood and make the priesthood of all believers the only priesthood. For this rebellion, they were swallowed by the earth.</p>
<p>What do you think?</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/10/03/psalm-88-staying-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-1509</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/10/03/psalm-88-staying-in-hell/#comment-1509</guid>
		<description>Anthony, welcome to the blog!  I&#039;ve come to enjoy the story of Jonah more and more over the years, mostly because I think it&#039;s one of those stories that shows God has a sense of humor.  To send stodgey old Jonah out to the horrible Ninevites and then have them all have a mass conversion on his watch is just wonderful.

Isaac, for a while my answer to the &quot;unifying threads of Scripture&quot; question came from Jonathan Wilson.  He remarked that perhaps what unifies the evangelical community is the very things we argue about.  So it&#039;s not necessarily the things that we agree upon that unify us, but the ideas and practices we find worth arguing about.  I&#039;ve applied this to Scripture in a couple of papers in the past, saying that the things the authors of Scripture found worth arguing about (the lordship of Christ, the divinity/humanity of Jesus, the inclusion of the Gentiles into the church, etc.) are the things that unify Scripture.  I&#039;m not so sure of the argument any more, it seems it might be a way of avoiding the question, and I&#039;m not sure it can be used to demonstrate the unity of Scripture in other areas (i.e. oneness of God, importance of repentance, etc., aboout which Scripture seems to have a unified voice).  But maybe it&#039;s a starting point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anthony, welcome to the blog!  I&#8217;ve come to enjoy the story of Jonah more and more over the years, mostly because I think it&#8217;s one of those stories that shows God has a sense of humor.  To send stodgey old Jonah out to the horrible Ninevites and then have them all have a mass conversion on his watch is just wonderful.</p>
<p>Isaac, for a while my answer to the &#8220;unifying threads of Scripture&#8221; question came from Jonathan Wilson.  He remarked that perhaps what unifies the evangelical community is the very things we argue about.  So it&#8217;s not necessarily the things that we agree upon that unify us, but the ideas and practices we find worth arguing about.  I&#8217;ve applied this to Scripture in a couple of papers in the past, saying that the things the authors of Scripture found worth arguing about (the lordship of Christ, the divinity/humanity of Jesus, the inclusion of the Gentiles into the church, etc.) are the things that unify Scripture.  I&#8217;m not so sure of the argument any more, it seems it might be a way of avoiding the question, and I&#8217;m not sure it can be used to demonstrate the unity of Scripture in other areas (i.e. oneness of God, importance of repentance, etc., aboout which Scripture seems to have a unified voice).  But maybe it&#8217;s a starting point.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Amor</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2005/10/03/psalm-88-staying-in-hell/comment-page-1/#comment-1499</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony Amor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Oct 2005 18:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Sorry, for the extra comment.  The professor&#039;s name is Ray Lubeck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, for the extra comment.  The professor&#8217;s name is Ray Lubeck.</p>
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