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	<title>Comments on: the groans of creation: johnny cash, jeffrey stout, and jacob taubes on the politics of nihilism</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/</link>
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		<title>By: isaac</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/comment-page-1/#comment-13716</link>
		<dc:creator>isaac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2007 13:40:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/#comment-13716</guid>
		<description>Ari, I am very grateful for your comments. I wish I could read more Taubes to pick up on the thoughts that you think are important. My problem is that I can&#039;t really read German. And not many of Taubes&#039; works are translated yet. Either I bite the bullet and learn some German, or wait (and &#039;groan&#039;) until some more get translated. That&#039;s also the case for most of the authors and books you recommended--I just can&#039;t read them due to my language insufficiencies. I very much want to read Bloch&#039;s book on Thomas Muntzer. Muntzer is becoming more and more important to me as I think through my Mennonite/Anabaptist identity. It&#039;s surprising to me that Bloch&#039;s book has not been translated into English.

But thank you for your comments; please visit again and lead us into other important nuanced discoveries.

peace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ari, I am very grateful for your comments. I wish I could read more Taubes to pick up on the thoughts that you think are important. My problem is that I can&#8217;t really read German. And not many of Taubes&#8217; works are translated yet. Either I bite the bullet and learn some German, or wait (and &#8216;groan&#8217;) until some more get translated. That&#8217;s also the case for most of the authors and books you recommended&#8212;I just can&#8217;t read them due to my language insufficiencies. I very much want to read Bloch&#8217;s book on Thomas Muntzer. Muntzer is becoming more and more important to me as I think through my Mennonite/Anabaptist identity. It&#8217;s surprising to me that Bloch&#8217;s book has not been translated into English.</p>
<p>But thank you for your comments; please visit again and lead us into other important nuanced discoveries.</p>
<p>peace.</p>
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		<title>By: Rocket</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/comment-page-1/#comment-13711</link>
		<dc:creator>Rocket</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2007 13:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/#comment-13711</guid>
		<description>Hmm interesting. I haven&#039;t read all the authors referred to above. But I had googled (that&#039;s a verb by the way) &quot;creation&quot; &quot;groan&quot; and &quot;Romans&quot;, whilst preparing a sermon, and found the blog and comments enlightening. Cash (that&#039;s JC) wearing black was a great observation and quote for me to use. At least both JCs spoke in action, as well as words. Maybe that&#039;s part of Paul&#039;s point: prayer is action. Prayer - not just groaning, lamenting our sad state, but &quot;groaning with&quot; and being ourselves born (again!) as part of a new creation. I have long been interested in the Spirit groaning, Creation groaning and we ourselves joining the chorus of sighing as we wait, and wait and wait for a new body. Could possibly (I haven&#039;t checked the Commentaries) the singular use of &quot;body&quot; indicate the church community joining creation (rather than the individualistic view of almost all translations)? So, like God, we groan with the human and non human world, not just visit and jet home again, and with God in Christ we join creation and the church in a joyful resurrection.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm interesting. I haven&#8217;t read all the authors referred to above. But I had googled (that&#8217;s a verb by the way) &#8220;creation&#8221; &#8220;groan&#8221; and &#8220;Romans&#8221;, whilst preparing a sermon, and found the blog and comments enlightening. Cash (that&#8217;s JC) wearing black was a great observation and quote for me to use. At least both JCs spoke in action, as well as words. Maybe that&#8217;s part of Paul&#8217;s point: prayer is action. Prayer &#8211; not just groaning, lamenting our sad state, but &#8220;groaning with&#8221; and being ourselves born (again!) as part of a new creation. I have long been interested in the Spirit groaning, Creation groaning and we ourselves joining the chorus of sighing as we wait, and wait and wait for a new body. Could possibly (I haven&#8217;t checked the Commentaries) the singular use of &#8220;body&#8221; indicate the church community joining creation (rather than the individualistic view of almost all translations)? So, like God, we groan with the human and non human world, not just visit and jet home again, and with God in Christ we join creation and the church in a joyful resurrection.</p>
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		<title>By: Ari Akkermans-Amaya</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/comment-page-1/#comment-13686</link>
		<dc:creator>Ari Akkermans-Amaya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 14:09:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/#comment-13686</guid>
		<description>You might want to look at a little book called &quot;Hannah Arendt and the Political Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth&quot;, by F. Dolan, the book of Klaus Harms &quot;Arendt and Jonas: Grundlage einer Philosophische Theologie der Weltverantwortung&quot; (the foundations of the philosophical theology of world-responsibility). Also the articles on Taubes by Eveline Goodman-Thau or the essay by Elettra Stimili &quot;Messianism as a Political Problem&quot;, on Taubes and Scholem and which I deliberately disagree with. The rejection of the world is what one achieves in the end going the way of Taubes, that Hegelian tendency to constantly escape the pressures of the present and which is the benchmark of the German philosophical tradition, to find a home in &quot;Greece&quot;. What if not this, is what the theology of liberation seeks? Taubes is famous for his saying &quot;In this world as it is, I want no spiritual investment&quot;. His wife Susan commited suicide, and so did his father--a famous rabbi from Zurich, then he married twice more, had a life-long affair with the Austrian writer Ingeborg Bachmann and wasn&#039;t particularly an exemplary citizen through his friendship with outlawed Schmitt and other well known Nazis in the political scene of Munich. Pity his letters to Eric Voegelin aren&#039;t published, so much one could learn from his Pauline theology from them. I forgot about keybook &quot;Die Auferstehung des juedischen Jesus&quot; (the resurrection of the Jewish Jesus) by Agnes Heller.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might want to look at a little book called &#8220;Hannah Arendt and the Political Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth&#8221;, by F. Dolan, the book of Klaus Harms &#8220;Arendt and Jonas: Grundlage einer Philosophische Theologie der Weltverantwortung&#8221; (the foundations of the philosophical theology of world-responsibility). Also the articles on Taubes by Eveline Goodman-Thau or the essay by Elettra Stimili &#8220;Messianism as a Political Problem&#8221;, on Taubes and Scholem and which I deliberately disagree with. The rejection of the world is what one achieves in the end going the way of Taubes, that Hegelian tendency to constantly escape the pressures of the present and which is the benchmark of the German philosophical tradition, to find a home in &#8220;Greece&#8221;. What if not this, is what the theology of liberation seeks? Taubes is famous for his saying &#8220;In this world as it is, I want no spiritual investment&#8221;. His wife Susan commited suicide, and so did his father&#8212;a famous rabbi from Zurich, then he married twice more, had a life-long affair with the Austrian writer Ingeborg Bachmann and wasn&#8217;t particularly an exemplary citizen through his friendship with outlawed Schmitt and other well known Nazis in the political scene of Munich. Pity his letters to Eric Voegelin aren&#8217;t published, so much one could learn from his Pauline theology from them. I forgot about keybook &#8220;Die Auferstehung des juedischen Jesus&#8221; (the resurrection of the Jewish Jesus) by Agnes Heller.</p>
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		<title>By: Ari Akkermans-Amaya</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/comment-page-1/#comment-13685</link>
		<dc:creator>Ari Akkermans-Amaya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 13:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/#comment-13685</guid>
		<description>Dear Isaac, 

I read with much surprise your post on Taubes (which is already rather old) and I would like to offer my two cents; albeit the whole blog is very interesting and wish I had more time to read through much more. Now down to business:

Scholem and Taubes parted ways already in the 1960&#039;s not only for personal reasons but out of their variegating interpretations of Benjamin&#039;s politics and history. I think it&#039;s highly misleading to approach Taubes only from his lectures on Paul without the &quot;Abendlaendische Eschatology&quot; which unfortunately has never been translated, and also without the lectures on Benjamin&#039;s Theses on the Philosophy of History that were delivered in 1984. The project of Nihilism as world-politics is of course a frame of the 19th century and derives out of a notion of history which in the postmodern political condition and reflected autonomy-contigency-historical consciousness is no longer tenable because it implies a critique of &quot;techne&quot; similar to that seen in Heidegger&#039;s &quot;die Zeit des Weltbildes&quot;. This is no longer tenable if only because it constitutes a critique of modernity that leads the way into an unsolvable problem that can be somehow repaired by means of a catastrophic/apocalyptic view of history. You see in Hans Blumenberg book when he speaks about &quot;Modernity in place of Eschatology: Modernity as Eschatology&quot;. 

Taubes&#039; greatest contribution to the field of religious history was his decisive step to place the beginning of all eschatological thinking not in the Church itself but in Paul and therefore throwing it back upon older Jewish sources no less than hermeneutically speaking finding these same antinomies in other places in the Jewish tradition; notwithstanding how disputable this could be. But coming out of the world that came to an end with the Nazi Holocaust, that what Hans Urs Von Balthasar called &quot;the apocalypse of the German soul&quot;, is very unlikely that Taubes would have seen his model of politics in the way you interpret it. That despair of mourning is the key virtue of postmodern thought and by tour de force its greatest failure because it adopts the same values that it rejected: the catastrophic end of rationality within reason that the Weimar Republic experienced. For example, you can find much better models for this post-apocalyptic politics or the reflection thereof in Herbert Marcuse, but more than anything you find in Guenther Anders and in Hannah Arendt. 

I agree that Stout is wrong, along with many others... it is this refusal to look at theology as politics, the legacy of the Enligthenment. What is so problematic with them is the total instrumentalization of everything, including politics and therefore human life per se which leads to human superfluousness, whereby the common world disappears and therefore the political sphere turns into a realm of theatricality, but theatricality without virtuoso performance. The &quot;black&quot; vision of Paul and Taubes is doubtless aesthetic and that&#039;s why it&#039;s so important... because it relies on some basic tenets that enable trascending a model that has wiped out all possibilities thereof. Yet, the eschaton is a line, whereas time is not, nor is eternity... the three concepts seem to stand on different conceptual planes, and eschatology as politics means throwing the teleology upon the absolute present of St. Augustine, and also of postmodernity by the way... It recreates the immanentism which it&#039;s trying to eliminate somewhere else. Taubes&#039; Christology is also disputable, and I think one should go better by Bloch in those cases... because Bloch rejected the theocracy (the kingdom polity/politics) but didn&#039;t overlook the importance of political theology, if not see his book on Thomas Muentzer as theologian of the Revolution. I&#039;m no Theologian of sorts, or was a little bit but no more. May you succeed in the seminar, and me in the meantime just in the research room :)

Ari
Between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Isaac,</p>
<p>I read with much surprise your post on Taubes (which is already rather old) and I would like to offer my two cents; albeit the whole blog is very interesting and wish I had more time to read through much more. Now down to business:</p>
<p>Scholem and Taubes parted ways already in the 1960&#8217;s not only for personal reasons but out of their variegating interpretations of Benjamin&#8217;s politics and history. I think it&#8217;s highly misleading to approach Taubes only from his lectures on Paul without the &#8220;Abendlaendische Eschatology&#8221; which unfortunately has never been translated, and also without the lectures on Benjamin&#8217;s Theses on the Philosophy of History that were delivered in 1984. The project of Nihilism as world-politics is of course a frame of the 19th century and derives out of a notion of history which in the postmodern political condition and reflected autonomy-contigency-historical consciousness is no longer tenable because it implies a critique of &#8220;techne&#8221; similar to that seen in Heidegger&#8217;s &#8220;die Zeit des Weltbildes&#8221;. This is no longer tenable if only because it constitutes a critique of modernity that leads the way into an unsolvable problem that can be somehow repaired by means of a catastrophic/apocalyptic view of history. You see in Hans Blumenberg book when he speaks about &#8220;Modernity in place of Eschatology: Modernity as Eschatology&#8221;.</p>
<p>Taubes&#8217; greatest contribution to the field of religious history was his decisive step to place the beginning of all eschatological thinking not in the Church itself but in Paul and therefore throwing it back upon older Jewish sources no less than hermeneutically speaking finding these same antinomies in other places in the Jewish tradition; notwithstanding how disputable this could be. But coming out of the world that came to an end with the Nazi Holocaust, that what Hans Urs Von Balthasar called &#8220;the apocalypse of the German soul&#8221;, is very unlikely that Taubes would have seen his model of politics in the way you interpret it. That despair of mourning is the key virtue of postmodern thought and by tour de force its greatest failure because it adopts the same values that it rejected: the catastrophic end of rationality within reason that the Weimar Republic experienced. For example, you can find much better models for this post-apocalyptic politics or the reflection thereof in Herbert Marcuse, but more than anything you find in Guenther Anders and in Hannah Arendt.</p>
<p>I agree that Stout is wrong, along with many others&#8230; it is this refusal to look at theology as politics, the legacy of the Enligthenment. What is so problematic with them is the total instrumentalization of everything, including politics and therefore human life per se which leads to human superfluousness, whereby the common world disappears and therefore the political sphere turns into a realm of theatricality, but theatricality without virtuoso performance. The &#8220;black&#8221; vision of Paul and Taubes is doubtless aesthetic and that&#8217;s why it&#8217;s so important&#8230; because it relies on some basic tenets that enable trascending a model that has wiped out all possibilities thereof. Yet, the eschaton is a line, whereas time is not, nor is eternity&#8230; the three concepts seem to stand on different conceptual planes, and eschatology as politics means throwing the teleology upon the absolute present of St. Augustine, and also of postmodernity by the way&#8230; It recreates the immanentism which it&#8217;s trying to eliminate somewhere else. Taubes&#8217; Christology is also disputable, and I think one should go better by Bloch in those cases&#8230; because Bloch rejected the theocracy (the kingdom polity/politics) but didn&#8217;t overlook the importance of political theology, if not see his book on Thomas Muentzer as theologian of the Revolution. I&#8217;m no Theologian of sorts, or was a little bit but no more. May you succeed in the seminar, and me in the meantime just in the research room <img src='http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Ari<br />
Between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem</p>
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		<title>By: Philip J. Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/comment-page-1/#comment-5872</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip J. Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Sep 2006 20:00:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/#comment-5872</guid>
		<description>I, too, was equally moved by Taubes&#039; Heidleberg lectures on Paul. I like his comparison of Nietzsche, Benjamin and Paul on the sinful/nihilist world. In addition, his thesis on the Jewish Paul, in contrast to the Hellenistic Paul, is compelling, although his Christology could use some &quot;tweaking.&quot; (I&#039;m still wondering about his definition of &quot;God-fearers&quot; and these people being the exclusive audience of Paul&#039;s ministry.) His ritual (Yom Kippur) interpretation of  Romans parallels Austin Farrer&#039;s St Mark offering an exciting avenue to pursue.

My question of Taubes&#039; exegesis, however, goes in a different direction. It approaches suspiciously the line of recent exegetes from Barth, Bultmann, and Bornkamm, to Hans Jonas, Ricouer, Kasemann and Wright. The problem may be seen in Taubes&#039; deliberation about visiting conservative Catholic jurist Carl Schmittt. He writes (I do not have the lecture with me, but quote from memory), I cannot judge the man CS, since as a Jew, we were all tempted to join the Nazi movement. It was only by an historical accident that we Jews were excluded. How enlightening! Remember, CS wrote as a legal theorist, in which he defines sovereignty as a decision for the exception. The key word is &quot;decision.&quot; Like CS, Taubes&#039; defines Paul&#039;s theory of law as decision-based, and Paul&#039;s mission as a decision (not &quot;&quot;conversion&quot;) to preach the Jewish apocalytic Messiah. The  philosophical heritage is Kierkegaard, and the image is a decision to &quot;leap&quot; into the abyss (nihilistic world). Unlike the Lutheran leap, in which the individual jumps, the Taubesian tumble is a collective movement of the community. Perhaps, Taubes&#039; tumble misses the all-pervasive, omnipotence of God? His fear of Spinoza&#039;s pantheism may have pushed him too far to the other side. Just as the local Jews &quot;excommunicated&quot; Spinoza, Taubes assigns to the synagogue the power to excommunicate the Son of God.

The order decided on by Taubes is, first, all have sinned (guilt), second, decide to give up the ego (sacrifice), third, the Messiah establishes the righteous community. Taubes does not like the interpretations of Paul and the conversion experience, because this theology has potential to undermine his schemata. It might be possible &quot;to be saved&quot; without recognition of sin! That is, by demoting Jesus the Messiah to the creator of community, Jesus the Christ has little to do in the transfiguration of both the community and individual. What is the role of grace in Taubes&#039; interpretation of Romans?

Haunted by Heidgger, a Nazi who sided for a kind of intellectual passivity (what Pieper calls &quot;the life of leisure;&quot; and Arendt &quot;vita intellectus&quot;) and, interestingly, Junger and Schmitt, the first a military officier and, the second, a jurist, both actively involved in the National Socialist German Workers Party, Jacob Taubes balances the mystical (Albert Schweitzer) with the voluntarist (Bultmann) hermeneutic. Taubes seems to favor the mystical, yet always within the redeeming community (his critique of Buber&#039;s I and Thou would bear this out).

I like your homiletic connection with Johnny Cash; however, it works only if you buy the argument that Paul, as Nietzsche describes, requires the acknowledgement of sin prior to belonging in Christ. Does Paul renounce Jesus when he says (in John 15:16), &quot;You did not chose me but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit–fruit that will last.?&quot;


Philip J. Hanson
http://faculty.ulv.edu/~hansonp/Index.htm
iblog: http://web.mac.com/hansonp/iWeb/Arizona%20Aridity/Welcome.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I, too, was equally moved by Taubes&#8217; Heidleberg lectures on Paul. I like his comparison of Nietzsche, Benjamin and Paul on the sinful/nihilist world. In addition, his thesis on the Jewish Paul, in contrast to the Hellenistic Paul, is compelling, although his Christology could use some &#8220;tweaking.&#8221; (I&#8217;m still wondering about his definition of &#8220;God-fearers&#8221; and these people being the exclusive audience of Paul&#8217;s ministry.) His ritual (Yom Kippur) interpretation of  Romans parallels Austin Farrer&#8217;s St Mark offering an exciting avenue to pursue.</p>
<p>My question of Taubes&#8217; exegesis, however, goes in a different direction. It approaches suspiciously the line of recent exegetes from Barth, Bultmann, and Bornkamm, to Hans Jonas, Ricouer, Kasemann and Wright. The problem may be seen in Taubes&#8217; deliberation about visiting conservative Catholic jurist Carl Schmittt. He writes (I do not have the lecture with me, but quote from memory), I cannot judge the man CS, since as a Jew, we were all tempted to join the Nazi movement. It was only by an historical accident that we Jews were excluded. How enlightening! Remember, CS wrote as a legal theorist, in which he defines sovereignty as a decision for the exception. The key word is &#8220;decision.&#8221; Like CS, Taubes&#8217; defines Paul&#8217;s theory of law as decision-based, and Paul&#8217;s mission as a decision (not &#8220;&#8221;conversion&#8221;) to preach the Jewish apocalytic Messiah. The  philosophical heritage is Kierkegaard, and the image is a decision to &#8220;leap&#8221; into the abyss (nihilistic world). Unlike the Lutheran leap, in which the individual jumps, the Taubesian tumble is a collective movement of the community. Perhaps, Taubes&#8217; tumble misses the all-pervasive, omnipotence of God? His fear of Spinoza&#8217;s pantheism may have pushed him too far to the other side. Just as the local Jews &#8220;excommunicated&#8221; Spinoza, Taubes assigns to the synagogue the power to excommunicate the Son of God.</p>
<p>The order decided on by Taubes is, first, all have sinned (guilt), second, decide to give up the ego (sacrifice), third, the Messiah establishes the righteous community. Taubes does not like the interpretations of Paul and the conversion experience, because this theology has potential to undermine his schemata. It might be possible &#8220;to be saved&#8221; without recognition of sin! That is, by demoting Jesus the Messiah to the creator of community, Jesus the Christ has little to do in the transfiguration of both the community and individual. What is the role of grace in Taubes&#8217; interpretation of Romans?</p>
<p>Haunted by Heidgger, a Nazi who sided for a kind of intellectual passivity (what Pieper calls &#8220;the life of leisure;&#8221; and Arendt &#8220;vita intellectus&#8221;) and, interestingly, Junger and Schmitt, the first a military officier and, the second, a jurist, both actively involved in the National Socialist German Workers Party, Jacob Taubes balances the mystical (Albert Schweitzer) with the voluntarist (Bultmann) hermeneutic. Taubes seems to favor the mystical, yet always within the redeeming community (his critique of Buber&#8217;s I and Thou would bear this out).</p>
<p>I like your homiletic connection with Johnny Cash; however, it works only if you buy the argument that Paul, as Nietzsche describes, requires the acknowledgement of sin prior to belonging in Christ. Does Paul renounce Jesus when he says (in John 15:16), &#8220;You did not chose me but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit&#8211;fruit that will last.?&#8221;</p>
<p>Philip J. Hanson<br />
<a href="http://faculty.ulv.edu/~hansonp/Index.htm" rel="nofollow">http://faculty.ulv.edu/~hansonp/Index.htm</a><br />
iblog:&#160;http://web.mac.com/hansonp/iWeb/Arizona%20Aridity/Welcome.html</p>
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		<title>By: dawn</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/comment-page-1/#comment-3823</link>
		<dc:creator>dawn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 02:47:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/#comment-3823</guid>
		<description>Isaac, what a great post! I appreciate the convergence the streams of philosophy, theology, and bible onto an interesting contemporary cultural icon. I love Johnny Cash. I always have. But I never would have put that stuff about him being &quot;the man in black&quot; together in the way you did. Very compelling argument.

I thought you might also be interested in a quote from Cash&#039;s autobiography, &lt;em&gt;Cash&lt;/em&gt;. When reporters ask him why he wears black, Johnny Cash quotes the same verse from the song &quot;Man in Black&quot; that you quoted. This is what he writes, &lt;strong&gt;&quot;I wore the black, I sang, &lt;em&gt;&#039;for the poor and beaten down, livin&#039; in the hopeless, hungry side of town.&#039;&lt;/em&gt; I wore it &lt;em&gt;&#039;for the prisoner who has long paid for his crime, but is there because he&#039;s a victim of the times.&#039;&lt;/em&gt; I wore it for &lt;em&gt;&#039;the sick and lonely old&#039;&lt;/em&gt; and &lt;em&gt;&#039;the reckless whose bad trip left them cold.&#039;&lt;/em&gt; And, with the Vietnam War as painful in my mind as it was in most other Americans, I wore it &lt;em&gt;&#039;in mourning for the lives that could have been. Each week we lose a hundred fine young men. I wear it for the thousands who have died, believin that the Lord was on their side.&#039;&lt;/em&gt;... Apart from the Vietnam War being over, I don&#039;t see much reason to change my position today. the old are still neglected, the poor are still poor, the young are still dying before their time, and we&#039;re not making many moves to make things right. There&#039;s still plenty of darkness to carry off.&quot;&lt;/strong&gt;

I thought you would appreciate the quote. I bet Cash would still be wearing black today for all those deaths in Iraq, and all the poor roaming the streets, made invisible by our secluded life-styles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isaac, what a great post! I appreciate the convergence the streams of philosophy, theology, and bible onto an interesting contemporary cultural icon. I love Johnny Cash. I always have. But I never would have put that stuff about him being &#8220;the man in black&#8221; together in the way you did. Very compelling argument.</p>
<p>I thought you might also be interested in a quote from Cash&#8217;s autobiography, <em>Cash</em>. When reporters ask him why he wears black, Johnny Cash quotes the same verse from the song &#8220;Man in Black&#8221; that you quoted. This is what he writes, <strong>&#8220;I wore the black, I sang, <em>&#8216;for the poor and beaten down, livin&#8217; in the hopeless, hungry side of town.&#8217;</em> I wore it <em>&#8216;for the prisoner who has long paid for his crime, but is there because he&#8217;s a victim of the times.&#8217;</em> I wore it for <em>&#8216;the sick and lonely old&#8217;</em> and <em>&#8216;the reckless whose bad trip left them cold.&#8217;</em> And, with the Vietnam War as painful in my mind as it was in most other Americans, I wore it <em>&#8216;in mourning for the lives that could have been. Each week we lose a hundred fine young men. I wear it for the thousands who have died, believin that the Lord was on their side.&#8217;</em>... Apart from the Vietnam War being over, I don&#8217;t see much reason to change my position today. the old are still neglected, the poor are still poor, the young are still dying before their time, and we&#8217;re not making many moves to make things right. There&#8217;s still plenty of darkness to carry off.&#8221;</strong></p>
<p>I thought you would appreciate the quote. I bet Cash would still be wearing black today for all those deaths in Iraq, and all the poor roaming the streets, made invisible by our secluded life-styles.</p>
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		<title>By: isaac</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/comment-page-1/#comment-3670</link>
		<dc:creator>isaac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 May 2006 14:06:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/#comment-3670</guid>
		<description>Gus, thanks for stumbling across the site. I think your comments about a cautious pessimism rooted in realism is important. But I don&#039;t want to say that pessimism is the answer, that there is no room for hope, for joy. I recently preached a sermon on Psalm 4 that talked about how our Christian witness in tough times takes the form of a &quot;greater joy&quot;:http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/05/01/peace-be-with-you-a-sermon-on-psalm-4/. Joy is important. But the question is how we decide to receive joy. A joy that isn&#039;t honest about the painful world in which we live (the &quot;harsh truths&quot;, as Gus puts it) seems to be a selfish sort of joy. But Jacob Taubes is helpful because he talks about Paul&#039;s vision of love and joy that is rooted in the pain and agony of a creation that groans. For Taubes&#039; Paul, the gift of joy comes to the people who find themselves &quot;in Christ&quot; as Paul puts it, in the body of Christ--as they mourn and despair in solidarity with those blessed ones who mourn, like Jesus said. And who knows what hope might come from that solidarity, from those concrete relationships that are transfigured by the flow of God&#039;s agape as Christ binds us together. We must give up our optimistic hopes that escape the reality of a world that suffers and instead abide with those who are in pain (some of whom are in pain because of our sins) and learn of an unspeakable joy and love that can only come as a gift of God&#039;s Spirit. We must be optimistic in the work of the Spirit to do the impossible when we least expect it, in the places that are furthest from worldly hopes. This is an optimism that believes that Jesus really died and that God did the impossible and raised Jesus from the dead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gus, thanks for stumbling across the site. I think your comments about a cautious pessimism rooted in realism is important. But I don&#8217;t want to say that pessimism is the answer, that there is no room for hope, for joy. I recently preached a sermon on Psalm 4 that talked about how our Christian witness in tough times takes the form of a <a href="http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/05/01/peace-be-with-you-a-sermon-on-psalm-4/" title="">greater joy</a>. Joy is important. But the question is how we decide to receive joy. A joy that isn&#8217;t honest about the painful world in which we live (the &#8220;harsh truths&#8221;, as Gus puts it) seems to be a selfish sort of joy. But Jacob Taubes is helpful because he talks about Paul&#8217;s vision of love and joy that is rooted in the pain and agony of a creation that groans. For Taubes&#8217; Paul, the gift of joy comes to the people who find themselves &#8220;in Christ&#8221; as Paul puts it, in the body of Christ&#8212;as they mourn and despair in solidarity with those blessed ones who mourn, like Jesus said. And who knows what hope might come from that solidarity, from those concrete relationships that are transfigured by the flow of God&#8217;s agape as Christ binds us together. We must give up our optimistic hopes that escape the reality of a world that suffers and instead abide with those who are in pain (some of whom are in pain because of our sins) and learn of an unspeakable joy and love that can only come as a gift of God&#8217;s Spirit. We must be optimistic in the work of the Spirit to do the impossible when we least expect it, in the places that are furthest from worldly hopes. This is an optimism that believes that Jesus really died and that God did the impossible and raised Jesus from the dead.</p>
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		<title>By: Gus Abraham</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/comment-page-1/#comment-3600</link>
		<dc:creator>Gus Abraham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 May 2006 12:27:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/#comment-3600</guid>
		<description>Thank you. Donbt know why a Scottish repubican was drwan to your site but i like it. Yes to Cash&#039;s line &#039;Oh I’d love to wear a rainbow every day and tell the world that everything’s okay
But I’ll try to carry off a little darkness on my back
Till things’re brighter I’m the man in black.&#039;

I like to be cautiously pessimistic about things and I think this is only realistic given where we are. Too much wild-eyed, pie-eyed optimists about ignoring some harsh truths.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you. Donbt know why a Scottish repubican was drwan to your site but i like it. Yes to Cash&#8217;s line &#8216;Oh I&#8217;d love to wear a rainbow every day and tell the world that everything&#8217;s okay<br />
But I&#8217;ll try to carry off a little darkness on my back<br />
Till things&#8217;re brighter I&#8217;m the man in black.&#8217;</p>
<p>I like to be cautiously pessimistic about things and I think this is only realistic given where we are. Too much wild-eyed, pie-eyed optimists about ignoring some harsh truths.</p>
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		<title>By: isaac</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/comment-page-1/#comment-1804</link>
		<dc:creator>isaac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Mar 2006 15:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/#comment-1804</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t want to interrupt the flow of the conversation or anything, but I was talking to a friend last night about an essay Peter Candler wrote about Johnny Cash a couple years back in &lt;em&gt;First Things&lt;/em&gt;. It&#039;s great. Check it out if you get a chance: &quot;Johnny of the Cross&quot;:http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0312/opinion/candler.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t want to interrupt the flow of the conversation or anything, but I was talking to a friend last night about an essay Peter Candler wrote about Johnny Cash a couple years back in <em>First Things</em>. It&#8217;s great. Check it out if you get a chance: <a href="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0312/opinion/candler.html" title="">Johnny of the Cross</a></p>
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		<title>By: isaac</title>
		<link>http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/comment-page-1/#comment-1803</link>
		<dc:creator>isaac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Mar 2006 03:31:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rustyparts.com/wp/2006/02/23/the-groans-of-creation-johnny-cash-jeffrey-stout-and-jacob-taubes-on-the-politics-of-nihilism/#comment-1803</guid>
		<description>Eric, thanks for reading the post. It is one of the more empassioned lines of thought I&#039;ve followed. I think it&#039;s because that Jacob Taubes book is infectuous. His passionate style snatches me right up into his Paul.

About Stout... I don&#039;t think this post is an accurate account of what I think about Stout&#039;s &lt;em&gt;Democracy and Tradition&lt;/em&gt;. Like I said above, I was pissed at him when I wrote this thing. I actually have great appreciation for his work because it really shifts the landscape of political theory and has the potential to move democracy in interesting directions. I would choose him over John Rawls any day. But, that said, I think Romand Coles gives you everything Stout has and more (see &lt;em&gt;Beyond Gated Politics&lt;/em&gt;).

I definitely think you should post that bit you wrote on Hauerwas. And, like you said, definitely see where that new Cross Currents article takes you (I assume that&#039;s the one you&#039;re talking about--I don&#039;t know of any others). It&#039;s about time Hauerwas shows his debt to Sheldon Wolin. By the way, check out the piece Peter Dula and Alex Sider wrote on &quot;Radical Democracy, Radical Ecclesiology.&quot; Great stuff. But I&#039;m biased--they&#039;re friends of mine from church. They give a more generous read of Stout, and offer some interesting criticisms of Hauerwas. They also bring Stanley Cavell into the conversation about American democracy, which seems like it would be quite helpful. Cavell&#039;s Emerson is a whole lot more interesting than what Stout has to say about &quot;emersonian democracy&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, thanks for reading the post. It is one of the more empassioned lines of thought I&#8217;ve followed. I think it&#8217;s because that Jacob Taubes book is infectuous. His passionate style snatches me right up into his Paul.</p>
<p>About Stout&#8230; I don&#8217;t think this post is an accurate account of what I think about Stout&#8217;s <em>Democracy and Tradition</em>. Like I said above, I was pissed at him when I wrote this thing. I actually have great appreciation for his work because it really shifts the landscape of political theory and has the potential to move democracy in interesting directions. I would choose him over John Rawls any day. But, that said, I think Romand Coles gives you everything Stout has and more (see <em>Beyond Gated Politics</em>).</p>
<p>I definitely think you should post that bit you wrote on Hauerwas. And, like you said, definitely see where that new Cross Currents article takes you (I assume that&#8217;s the one you&#8217;re talking about&#8212;I don&#8217;t know of any others). It&#8217;s about time Hauerwas shows his debt to Sheldon Wolin. By the way, check out the piece Peter Dula and Alex Sider wrote on &#8220;Radical Democracy, Radical Ecclesiology.&#8221; Great stuff. But I&#8217;m biased&#8212;they&#8217;re friends of mine from church. They give a more generous read of Stout, and offer some interesting criticisms of Hauerwas. They also bring Stanley Cavell into the conversation about American democracy, which seems like it would be quite helpful. Cavell&#8217;s Emerson is a whole lot more interesting than what Stout has to say about &#8220;emersonian democracy&#8221;.</p>
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